Rank Between Leg. and Marshal?

[Palindora]

Gaiutus Baltar wrote:

There are few Legionnaires at this time. But, that will change as more people are getting promotions and they will soon have Legionnaire status. In the future, we can expect over 70% of peacekeepers to advance to Legionnaire, which would probably make it seem not so special as is noted in your first comment.

If we got to this point then I'd say the legionnaires rank isn't reflecting a member providing value add and really just counts to undermining those peacekeepers who had been with the guild for sometime.

[Arkathos]

There are few Legionnaires at this time. But, that will change as more people are getting promotions and they will soon have Legionnaire status. In the future, we can expect over 70% of peacekeepers to advance to Legionnaire, which would probably make it seem not so special as is noted in your first comment.

If we got to this point then I'd say the legionnaires rank isn't reflecting a member providing value add and really just counts to undermining those peacekeepers who had been with the guild for sometime.

How so? I fail to see where you are coming from on this bud. The idea is that in the future we'll be in game and have so many people doing a great job and being excellent members that they'll be deserving of a Legionnaire promotion. In no way does that undermine peacekeepers at all. The above quote of mine was projecting a year or two into the future, when we've had so many people around Pax that have proven they deserve the Legionnaire rank, and I forsee most peacekeepers (30% others) to be mostly new members. So forgive me if I am ignorant and not understanding, but I hope that I addressed the concern?

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[Luke Filewalker]

Aestel Cooper wrote:

Gaiutus Baltar wrote: There are few Legionnaires at this time. But, that will change as more people are getting promotions and they will soon have Legionnaire status. In the future, we can expect over 70% of peacekeepers to advance to Legionnaire, which would probably make it seem not so special as is noted in your first comment. If we got to this point then I'd say the legionnaires rank isn't reflecting a member providing value add and really just counts to undermining those peacekeepers who had been with the guild for sometime.

Legionnaires is/will be a rank that is recognized for their contributions to the guild. Those who are just peacekeepers have either

A. Not done anything for the guild.
B. Do contribute to the guild but haven't been here for long enough
or
C. Are about to be promoted.

So in no means would it be undermining peacekeepers.

Unless i missed something?

[Hart of Hircine]

Luke Filewalker wrote:

Aestel Cooper wrote: Gaiutus Baltar wrote: There are few Legionnaires at this time. But, that will change as more people are getting promotions and they will soon have Legionnaire status. In the future, we can expect over 70% of peacekeepers to advance to Legionnaire, which would probably make it seem not so special as is noted in your first comment. If we got to this point then I'd say the legionnaires rank isn't reflecting a member providing value add and really just counts to undermining those peacekeepers who had been with the guild for sometime. Legionnaires is/will be a rank that is recognized for their contributions to the guild. Those who are just peacekeepers have either A. Not done anything for the guild. B. Do contribute to the guild but haven't been here for long enough or C. Are about to be promoted. So in no means would it be undermining peacekeepers. Unless i missed something?

Unless the admins have some terroristic online plot against peacekeepers then I see no way it will undermine the peacekeepers one bit. Pax is like a family and the peacekeeper is usually the young boy/girl who needs to put his foot in the door by helping out and trust me to be a legionnaire isn't that hard to do if you follow the charter and be active in all areas, while not only voicing your own concerns but others aswell and in the long run the guild learns about you and they know your a team player and will be rewarded for such. Don't get me wrong I used to be an officer and I got the position after stepping down. I was in what blind's position is now. I was the original guild ambassador. Even though my skills were weak I still did my fair share voicing the guilds concerns with the other guilds' concerns. Legionnaire is not a hard rank to get, people need to put in a positive effort.

Btw the peacekeepers have always been in my eyes as I watched for positive outcome from people and as I said peacekeepers are like the young the young are always willing to help out, always watched after, and always able to excel exactly like a young being.

So think of the ranks like life itself. The lower/younger you are, the more you are taken care of. The older/higher you are the more that people want, watch, and/or honor you. You always got to mind your p's and q's for the higher/older you are the more the consequences.

[Wolfwood Barbarossa]

I think 4 ranks is good! I think the 2nd rank is great for people who have been around awhile and help out others once in while. Its a good place to be, even if you don't want to take on to much responsibility. That leaves 2 more spots for more active and helpful members to achieve, while also not leaving the more casual members forever at their starting rank.

[Palindora]

Gaiutus Baltar wrote:

How so?

Like so:

Luke Filewalker wrote:

A. Not done anything for the guild.

Azno Chozulo wrote:

Legionnaire is not a hard rank to get, people need to put in a positive effort.

So having been in the guild for 18 months and still being a peacekeeper the impression given to at least some people is that I must be someone who has not made a positive effort and hasn't done anything for the guild. So when you set the expectations that everyone will make legionnaire you give the impression that someone has failed to achieve it rather than the others have succeeded at doing so.

Which all sounds a little depressing so

[Arkathos]

How so?
Like so:
A. Not done anything for the guild.
Legionnaire is not a hard rank to get, people need to put in a positive effort.

So having been in the guild for 18 months and still being a peacekeeper the impression given to at least some people is that I must be someone who has not made a positive effort and hasn't done anything for the guild. So when you set the expectations that everyone will make legionnaire you give the impression that someone has failed to achieve it rather than the others have succeeded at doing so.

Which all sounds a little depressing so

Actually Aestel, you were considered for promotion this month for Legionnaire. The thing was, you haven't been in vent enough in the past to warrant it over say for example, Wolfwood Barbarossa who has been in vent more often - the requirements for promotion are vent and forum activity. Lately we've all noted how impressed we've been with your activity increase, and decided that if you maintained your current level of activity you've shown this month into the coming month then you will be deserving of Legionnaire. We also took into account your generous offer to encourage people to play LOTRO with us all by starting up the house competition; that was noted and influenced my personal decision to have you be nominated again next month. I never forget the good things people do around here.

Just because someone isn't a Legionnaire does not mean they are not worth anything - just being in the guild period is important and means a great deal, because it means you're a good person and haven't given us cause to remove you. We kick so many people and decline so many apps because they are not good fits, or they are not the nicest folks you could find - so a peacekeeper is still top of the bunch out there, just haven't met the full requirements for activity.

Hope that helps explain it; and I was reluctant to give away the fact you were considered, and will likely be promoted next month, since it ruins the surprise, but figured it'd help quell any more of your concerns. :P

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[Valtrics]

Adding more ranks gives people something to strive for, therefore making them more of an asset to the guild. I vote yes.

[Arkathos]

48 more hours until this is closed; at present the new rank will be implemented.

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[CMDR Blue R]

Gaiutus Baltar wrote:

CMDR Blue R wrote: I voted no. If we get too many ranks, there will be chaos.. We should place rules of new rank... and this must be detailed... For now Legionairre is clear. You're good member, you get Legionairre... But what'll be for rank above? You are goody good member? For me line: Trainee - Peacekeeper - Legionairre - Marshall - etc... Is very good line of ranks Trainee doesn't count as a rank, as they're not technically a member. Marshall will be a penny in a hundred bucks; very few people will get this rank, and we will have a set number. So really there are 2 ranks; Peacekeeper and Legionairre. An additional rank would equal 3 - and I hardly think 3 ranks is something to create chaos. :P I'd wager over 60% of the guilds out there for TOR have over 15 ranks, with branches, and individual ranks for special people in membership, with fun names that make no sense. :P And @ Aestel we have yet to fully develop the rank hence the "responsibilities" will be determined later, but we'll post here if we manage to put it together early. Off to school now. :P

Ofc. Trainee isn't rank, but this is in line... Every member was trainee, when he apply though.

And about %. I'm also in guild, where there are only 3 ranks.
Non member, member and officers. And there is no problem.

In my opinion, if we put more ranks, there will be few disadvantages.. Why member X get 3rd rank, and member Y no?
Guild with over 15 ranks? As they wish... For me it's stupidity. More ranks = more problems.

On one forum admin created new rank. "Game-masters".. Because he think, that players will easier find Game-master... Yeah... I don't think that anyone on that forum used that.... Especially, that we have subforum where Gamemasters write post, when they open game and looking for players... But he created that rank, put me to directed that group... And.... Nothing.... Just Nothing...

Look:
Trainee - someone, who want to be in Pax Republica
Peacekeeper - someone, who is in Pax Republica
Legionairre - someone, who is in Pax Republica and he/she's trusted person
Marshall - someone, who is in Pax Republica and have his/her very important duties.

What will be new rank? Someone, who is in Pax Republica and he/she is more trusted person?
And what's later? Again new rank for someone, who is in Pax Republica and he'she is much more trusted person? Later most trusted person... And 2 years later more then most trusted person?
In my opinion simply is the best...

[mrmarko]

I voted yes,

All of us here have vastly different lives & responsibilities - different ranks will allow leadership to slot those in who wish to take on a multitude of different levels of responsibility.

With too few ranks it's puts people trying to increase in al all or nothing situation - when in reality a gradual scale is required.

When I used to run a Corporation in EvE I had quite a few ranks, all with different levels to suit the players in the Corp.

It also meant I could hand out minor promotions to those who deserved it (without landing them a mass of new duty's to go with it, just a couple of things).

[Arkathos]

Ofc. Trainee isn't rank, but this is in line... Every member was trainee, when he apply though.

And about %. I'm also in guild, where there are only 3 ranks.
Non member, member and officers. And there is no problem.

In my opinion, if we put more ranks, there will be few disadvantages.. Why member X get 3rd rank, and member Y no?
Guild with over 15 ranks? As they wish... For me it's stupidity. More ranks = more problems.

On one forum admin created new rank. "Game-masters".. Because he think, that players will easier find Game-master... Yeah... I don't think that anyone on that forum used that.... Especially, that we have subforum where Gamemasters write post, when they open game and looking for players... But he created that rank, put me to directed that group... And.... Nothing.... Just Nothing...

Look:
Trainee - someone, who want to be in Pax Republica
Peacekeeper - someone, who is in Pax Republica
Legionairre - someone, who is in Pax Republica and he/she's trusted person
Marshall - someone, who is in Pax Republica and have his/her very important duties.

What will be new rank? Someone, who is in Pax Republica and he/she is more trusted person?

And what's later? Again new rank for someone, who is in Pax Republica and he'she is much more trusted person? Later most trusted person... And 2 years later more then most trusted person?
In my opinion simply is the best...

Your entire argument seems to be based off the fact that administration must be stupid. We have always been against more ranks from the moment I made the structure over two years ago; and have continued to be against more ranks since. We propose adding ONE new rank and some people seem to get their pants in a knot fearing that it will lead to "class disparity" or that it could get out of control and we'd keep making one rank after another. It shames me to think people think so poorly on our ability to run this community that they don't trust us to handle things with proper management and tact - as we've done in the past. I feel like there is no way for me to explain it to you in a way which you will understand since you seem set in your argument, so I will leave it be - but regardless, the rank will be implemented tomorrow as the poll dictates a 2:1 vote.

And about the part I bolded and underlined, you must not have understood my explanation of the rank which is posted up in the Administration Blog as it clearly indicates what it is. It is not necessarily someone more trusted, but someone who has more time and energy / talents and skills to dedicate to the guild as an officer or leader of operations and battlegrounds, than say a Legionnaire. It is 100% fair, and 100% determined by the effort and quality of the individual.

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[CMDR Blue R]

Gaiutus Baltar wrote:

Your entire argument seems to be based off the fact that administration must be stupid.(...)

I never said something like that. My argument is based on "More ranks = fake split"... In my opinion this new rank is just.... Well.. Showning off rank.
Maybe I'm little too accustomed to style:

There is director, and "equal members". And if someone is better... Well... Anybody will see this without rank... Example: Finx!
Even if he would be trainee for years [or Peacekeeper], he would be seen as great member...

And ranks make split.
Example?

Average user is afraid to talk with things that he suspect may be stupid directly to officers/marshalls.
So he/she will talk to peacekeepers or legionarre first.
I'm little afraid that this will make another fake split.
My opinion is that it's good that we have only 2 ranks under Marshall

Gaiutus Baltar wrote:

And about the part I bolded and underlined, you must not have understood my explanation of the rank which is posted up in the Administration Blog as it clearly indicates what it is.

Well.. This explanation in Administrator blog was too general for me.. And I seen this what I wrote (More trusted). Your post (this above) better explaining [about time/energy/skill/talent]... I agree now, that this is fair, but as I wrote earlier... In my opinion this isn't so good option.

Ofc. I see I'm in minority group, but if this will be will of Pax, I'll follow it. But personally I voted no.

[Arkathos]

btw apologize if my last post was grumpy, throwing up and not feeling well at all <3 you cmdr. And I am glad you voted no, because you voted how you feel and that helps us make decisions and tweak things to try and accomodate others.

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[Pauliosis]

Gaiutus Baltar wrote:

To note on this; 1. Yes, people definitely change with power. We've removed a few people in the past who let it get to their heads. The job of an administrator or leader is not to be served, but to serve. Likewise, the job of a member is not to be served, but to serve. In this way, each party is kept humble, and helps the other. 2. The purpose of wanting this extra rank between Marshal and Legionairre is to ensure we get some more quality time and focus on any individual in X rank before promoting them to Marshal. Taking away promotions almost always result in removal of membership as well; since whatever caused the loss of rank is usually a charter violation = strike or more severe actions! So if this were to be implemented, as always, it would be carefully handled and executed to the best of our abilities.

Alrighty then thank you for clarifying this, now i feel a bit more confident voting yes. Now it makes sense to me, marshal is somewhat(even though it may not be a fun gift depending on the responsibilities) of a reward and also a trial to see if they are right for bigger responsibilities.